The Meaning of Life

I was not contemplating writing a post on the meaning of life, but repeated recent interactions and the depressing take of a few dystopian post-scarcity novels compelled me to articulate my thoughts.

Nihilism

I have been receiving messages like the following:

“I’ve been reading your blog for a while, and I love that you have original ideas instead of recycling mainstream, “normie” talk.

I wanted to ask: what keeps you motivated to do everything that you do? Do you believe in a universal meaning or purpose to life? How do you overcome nihilism and stay optimistic about the future of humanity?

Lastly, do you think the universe and the human species are destined to eventually perish, or is there a possibility of escape?”

Many of the smartest people I know suffer from extreme existential angst. They despair that any of their achievements won’t matter in 1,000 years. In 1-billion-years Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, and Jesus will all be forgotten given how different humanity will be, even in the unlikely scenario it still exists in a way we could even begin to recognize or comprehend. Ultimately, if the universe keeps expanding, as physicists currently expect it to, all will disappear with the eventual heat death of the universe. Why do anything if nothing you do ultimately matters?

Most post-scarcity novels where we all become immortal omnipotent Gods descend into nihilism. They argue that nothing means anything if you do not have to work for it and people lose all joie de vivre and reason to live.

Unexpected Spiritual Awakening

Until 10 years ago, I would have considered myself a rational agnostic. As a high IQ economist and mathematician, I valued reason above all else and was beyond skeptical of religion and spirituality. It all began on a fateful day in May 2015. At this point, I led a rich successful life full of love, gratitude, and optimism. This is my default state of being, which I realize is not common. I was very athletic. I did not drink or smoke and had never done any drugs.

A good friend of mine said that at least once in my life I should experience an intentional heart opening: a small, safe, comfortable, quiet and intimate setting where we ceremonially take pure MDMA as a heart opener.

I would normally never have said yes to something like this. My intellect and mindset are my comparative advantages in life. I would never want to put them at risk. Also, I grew up on the Nancy Reagan ads with the frying eggs saying: “This is your brain on drugs. Just say no to drugs.”

I am not sure what compelled me to say yes to something I would have never normally said yes to in my life. Perhaps it was the person asking. Perhaps it was that I was in a period of flux and transition and thinking about what to do next. For whatever reason, I said why not and went in with no expectation.

Something beautiful and magical happened. I was overcome with a feeling of infinite love. I oozed love. I felt love for myself, for my friends, for my family, for humanity at large. I felt to the core of my being that the fabric of the universe was unconditional love. The beauty was that the feeling persevered for weeks on end and that underlying feeling that the universe is made of love has not left me to this day, 10 years later.

This experience indirectly led me to studying Tantra whose meditative practices made me feel spiritual. I went down a deep Tantra rabbit-hole studying various modalities, its history and ultimately creating my own version of it, which incorporates various Daoist techniques. Note that I use a variety of Tantric and Daoist techniques rather than adhere to the philosophical beliefs espoused by practitioners like Mantak Chia.  

My personal health habits had already taught me that a lot of the generally accepted health and longevity dogmas were wrong: “one glass of red wine per day is good for you,” “breakfast is the most important meal of the day,” “fat is bad,” “salt is bad.” This is so far from the diet that works for me, that it made me question generally accepted wisdom. I am on a high protein, low carb, healthy fat diet with as little processed food as possible. I skip breakfast. I am intermittently fasting several times per week, but not full time such as not to adjust to it. I consume almost no alcohol (only for celebratory purposes a few times per year) and have a high salt intake given the 10+ hours per week I typically exercise.

The MDMA experience also made me question the generally accepted knowledge on drugs so I started doing primary research on various substances to understand if any could be interesting to try in my ongoing research in understanding the nature of reality. In so doing, I followed in the footsteps of Aldous Huxley. I read Doors of Perception. I also came across Michael Pollan’s 2015 New Yorker article The Trip Treatment which served as the basis for his book How to Change Your Mind. After much more research, I came to a much more nuanced perspective. I was shocked that many of the worst drugs, like alcohol, which is a literal poison, tobacco and sugar, are legal while some like psylocibin and LSD (also called acid) which are not addictive, not toxic, have no hangover, and can be useful both therapeutically and for feeling transcendence are not.

After looking at neurotoxicity, addictiveness, and other attributes I concluded to essentially never drink alcohol or consume tobacco, limit sugar, never take any opiates, cocaine and almost all other classes of drugs including weed and ketamine (though those two can be used therapeutically) but to try psylocibin and LSD and consider Ayahuasca.

Psylocibin can be effective for treating depression given the limitations of SSRIs. Those destroy your zest for life, lower your libido, and don’t work for everyone. In addition, you need to keep taking them. They don’t cure you. That said I did not approach this with the intent to heal trauma given how happy and full my life was and is. I approached this more with an open mind and curiosity to try to unravel the nature of reality.

At first, I experienced both in small, ceremonial, intimate context but with light doses – psychoactive, but not a hero dose with total ego death. Those experiences were magical. I felt an extraordinary sense of oneness with everyone around me and everything. Your senses are heightened. It feels that you can see the space between atoms and start seeing solid surfaces breath. You can seemingly see every star in the sky. You become engrossed in the present, stop taking everything so seriously, and start seeing joy and humor in every moment. Every time I laugh so incredibly hard and uncontrollably that my jaw hurts the next day.

Ego Death

My first deep journey happened accidentally. I was at Burning Man and made the rookie move of asking a friend to put a drop of acid under my tongue. The correct move is obviously to put it on your hand and to lick it, but I like the ceremony of giving it to each other. As the drop was reluctant to come out, she pressed insistently on the bottle and a large unknown quantity of drops fell under my tongue.

I love doing acid at Burning Man randomly biking around seeing where the night takes me. I am in awe at human creativity and all the effort that goes into creating spectacular and magical experiences for everyone. While I bike, I literally feel that I am in Ready Player One or Tron navigating through space and time in a world of wonder.

I would not, however, pick it as the setting for a deep meditative spiritual journey. It can be too hot or too cold, confusing, dusty and dirty. As I did not know how much acid I had taken, I assumed I would be ok but quickly realized that I was being taken on an inwards journey. I went to my friends’ camp at Robot Heart, lay down on a couch, closed my eyes and surrendered to the experience.

At first it felt like I was floating in space, until I finally became space. I observed the creation of the universe and space-time. I observed the creation of earth and saw evolution until the emergence of mankind. At times I was a third-party observer. It felt like every single piece of art ever made was played for me sequentially at high speed: plays, books, movies, tv shows, paintings, past present and future.

At times, I became the creator. I experienced total ego death. I lost total awareness of the individual Fabrice Grinda. It did not bother me. I was so fascinated by what I was observing. Over the course of the night, I felt that I was every human that ever lived. I remember vividly being a mother, a surfer and being countless people throughout time. At times, I was vaguely aware that this Fabrice character existed, and it would be fine to return to him, but if not, everything was totally fine as well. I was everything and everyone that was, ever was, and ever would be.

The night felt like it lasted eons. When I came back to this body and individual, my friends took me to see the sunrise in their art car. It felt like I could see the operating system of the universe in red in the sky. Likewise, I could see the sand melting into the ground giving me an inkling of where Dali’s inspiration might have come from.

I did not realize it at the time, but I had just experienced a non-dual awakening. I realized this when I came across Andy Weir’s short story The Egg many years later. You can find it beautifully animated in the inimitable style of Kurzgesagt below.

The Egg is a game God plays with itself. In The Egg, the man dies and meets “God” who tells him “You’re everyone who ever lived or ever will live.”

This means:

  • Every villain you hated? You were them.
  • Every lover you embraced? Also you.
  • Every life, every emotion, every angle of the human experience? You’re playing all of them.

In The Egg, reincarnation is not just about returning, it’s about playing every possible version of the game, until the player remembers: it was all me.

The point is to experience, not to win. Life is a play, a dance, a performance. The point of life in the game is simply to live it, to feel it, to explore it from every angle.

My loss of ego was an awakening. It felt like there was no “me” vs “others.” I was not in the universe; I was the universe.

In The Egg, we are all God, but we’ve forgotten. We split ourselves into billions of perspectives. We are learning, growing, and waking up to eventually become aware of what we are. I experienced all of that.

Further Explorations

  1. Psylocibin Sound Journey

At the time, I had not yet come across The Egg or studied the philosophy of non-dualism. I just knew I had experienced something beautiful and magical and wanted to continue down this path of exploration. Note that I did not pursue any of this with any diligence but rather let it flow into my life. I did not go out looking for spiritual experiences but let them in when they came and as a result they were spaced on average of over a year.

I started hearing of beautiful deep psylocibin journeys organized by an amazing ethnomusicologist, sound therapist, and sound researcher. As more people around me kept raving about the experience, I asked for an introduction and set a date to embark on a journey. I made sure to sleep well, eat well, and consume no caffeine for the week before entering the ceremonial space. We spoke at length about the process and my intention for the journey which was simply to experience everything with an open mind and an open heart.

I ended up going very deep by taking 9 grams of psylocibin for a proper hero’s journey. I lay down on a yoga mat with a facemask over my eyes and let the journey begin. It was again beautiful and magical. It had elements of similarity with the deep LSD journey but was distinctive.

The experience was guided by music: gongs, bowls and a variety of instruments. What is interesting is that at some point I became the music. I no longer felt my body, I was literally the music. It’s hard to describe the sensation given how otherworldly it felt, but it was majestic. I was not only the note of music, but I was also the emotion that the note was meant to evoke. Each vibration made me feel the relevant emotion dialed up to a factor of 1000. I felt awe, joy, elation, fear, sadness and everything in between. It was extraordinary.

In more meditative moments, I experienced another moment of non-dualism. I intuited that outside of this time and space lived an immortal, omnipotent, and omniscient deity, perhaps one that won the game of life in its own universe. The issue with being such a deity is that it’s bored. Nothing surprises or is ever new. In effect, it is suffering from the horror of bored immortality the post-scarcity dystopian novels talk about. While it may have tried to kill itself and cannot succeed, it came up with an elegant solution. It created this universe, simulation, or matrix out of its own essence with a set of rules. It imbued it with its magic for life to exist but spread its essence out such that none of the participants realize their divinity. This is why we feel a sense of oneness with all things – we are actually one.

Like in the movie The Matrix some rules can be bent, and others can be broken because we are divine even though we have forgotten our divinity. This is why manifesting works. The number of eerie “coincidences” I experienced is mind boggling. At Burning Man, while tripping on acid once I would think of someone I had not seen forever and did not even know they were there and they would appear within minutes – which happened several times in a row. I would want something, and someone would offer it to me. I also had moments of actual telepathy. We would place our heads against each other and have full blown conversations in our thoughts. Likewise, we would observe images based on reality that were not there. To make sure we did not prime each other, we wrote down on a piece of paper what we were seeing. In every case, we were observing the same thing. For example, in one instance we saw Disney characters rapidly coming out of the flames of a firepit.

I loved the experience but did not feel compelled to research what I had experienced or for that matter to seek another similar experience. I just sat with it until the next opportunity flowed into my life by happenstance a year later.

  1. Ayahuasca

Many of my friends had started mentioning Ayahuasca and the role it had played in their life, and I was intrigued. Most of them went down the path in order to heal trauma and specifically sought out the experience. I felt beyond satisfied with where I was in my life so did not feel compelled to seek it out. Prior to the experience, you need to prepare for the 10 days prior by meditating, sleeping well, eating vegan, fully abstaining from sex, alcohol and caffeine. You need to come in “clean” to the experience. In addition, you need time to reflect on the journey and recover from it. With the busy life I led, the time never felt right, not to mention most of my friends did it in the jungles of Brazil or Peru.

In October of 2018, the proper set of circumstances happened. I was living in a huge ground floor Airbnb in Tribeca at the time. A friend of mine had asked if she could use it to host a yoga class. I acquiesced and briefly met her co-host. A few weeks later, on a random Wednesday night, said co-host saw me playing video games from the street and knocked on my door. I opened it, and we started chatting. She told me she was attending an Ayahuasca ceremony in 10 days and invited me to join.

It just so happened that I could do the preparation over the next 10 days and had time to recover after the journey so I saw it as a sign that I should do it. Beyond the aforementioned preparation, the other recommendation I got was to wear white. Once again, I went in with no expectations. The plan was to do a first journey overnight in a yoga studio in the deep jungle of Bushwick, immediately followed by a day journey in a Church in upstate New York.

There were 20 or 30 people in addition to the masters of ceremony who had been trained by the Yawanawa tribe. Ayahuasca is made of two different plants which one their own are not psychoactive, but when mixed in a brew are very potent. To prepare for the experience, we received Rape, a form of tobacco, which was blown into our nostrils. I was told the intent was to clear our minds, open energy channels, and set intentions, but I must admit I found the experience extremely unpleasant.

After that we imbued the first cup of Ayahuasca which was also rather unpleasant: thick, bitter, earthy, and oily. Over the course of the night and following day, I ended up drinking 4 cups. I also accepted drops of Sananga into my eyes. It’s a traditional eye medicine that is supposed to ground you and enhance your inner vision. I also found that extremely unpleasant and did not feel it added to my experience.

While the DMT started taking effect the masters of ceremony started singing songs. What’s interesting is that the entire approach uses hypnotic techniques ranging from the visuals in the background to the words of the songs being sung. My first intuition was to resist the messages, but ultimately, I decided that given how beautiful the messages were, they were worth accepting as they were variations on the theme of loving the life you had and the person you were. I suppose that what I was resistant to is that it made sense for me to accept the life I had, but many are not as privileged, and the messages seemed to deprive them of the opportunity to seek better lives by accepting their current life.

However, as the ceremony progressed, I think I understood the point they were making. In life, we will all face a variety of experiences. As John Milton put it: “The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven.” You do not control what happens to you, but you control how you react to it. That’s why we often come across people who seemingly have everything and yet are miserable, while some who seemingly have nothing are beyond content. Even the most mundane task can be made interesting by treating it as a form of art or play.

What is interesting to note about the Ayahuasca experience is that when messages are presented to you, you feel nauseous if you try to reject them and great if you accept them. Likewise, as you imagine various lives for yourself, you feel nauseous while going down the wrong path and feel great while going down the right one. I have no idea how it works, but I experienced it firsthand.

It seemed to me that the best use for Ayahuasca is to explore different paths available to you when facing fundamental decisions and to try to get to the meaning of your life. It’s interesting how contrasting my experience was to those around me. Everyone around me seemed to be getting the message that their life was not aligned with their purpose and were aggressively purging, weeping and generally having a miserable go of it.

I got very different messages: you are living your best life; you are living your life’s purpose. Everything is amazing! That’s not to say I did not get valuable insights from the trip. The first message was to be open to the signs the universe sends you. If you try hard at something and it’s not working, it’s a sign that it’s not for you. Note that this only applies if you really try. I came to the realization that this was happening to my Silicon Cabarete project in the Dominican Republic. Despite years of effort and millions invested, problems kept escalating: guests got mugged, visitors would get tropical diseases, everyone asked for bribes, there was an attempted rape, one of my guests got shot, one of my dogs got poisoned, until finally we got attacked by gunmen on the property. The message kept getting clearer: the time had come to leave. And so, in 2019 I moved to Turks & Caicos. Likewise, I moved on from a video game I was trying to build but was not progressing as smoothly as I had hoped.

The second message I got was from my grandmother who argued I should have kids. She told me that the reason I was reluctant to have kids was that my life was perfect and that I feared kids would decrease my quality of life. Kids seemed to have worsened the quality of life of my friends. I stopped seeing them as they got too busy. They stopped being the individual, or the couple and just became parents having substituted their life for the life of their kids. This did not seem compelling.

She made a multifold argument. First, she argued that the costs would be lower than I expected. I lead a non-traditional life and could be a non-traditional parent focusing on quality of interaction rather than quantity. I could have kids and keep living the life I lead. She argued I could take the kids on adventures with me everywhere. In other words, the kids would be a complement to my life, not a substitute for it.

Second, she argued that the benefits of having kids were greater than I imagined and that it would fill my life with even more joy and love. It was articulated as follows: you love teaching and have taught classes at Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and others. You will love teaching your kids in which you will recognize yourself in and grow with. Moreover, you are a big child. You love remote-controlled cars and planes, paintball, video games and all manner of fun and games. Having children will allow you to let your inner child lose like never before.

The arguments were compelling and embarked on the journey to have kids following the ceremony. It took a few years to make it happen, but I can tell you one thing: my grandmother was right. I love being a father. I am taking the kids on all the adventures. I already took François, who is 4, heliskiing, kitesurfing, efoiling, paragliding, go-karting, and much more.

I even took his one-year-old sister Amélie, on a monster hike that required rappelling across a river, and we camped in a tent with wolves howling into the night.

The third thing that came out of the Ayahuasca ceremony is that I got visited by two white German Shepherds. I was enamored by Jon Snow’s dire wolf, Ghost, but thought it was just CGI. I did not realize it was based on a real dog. The dog told me I was a shining beacon of light in a universe of darkness leading an epic life and that I needed an epic white dog by my side. Similarly, I embarked on a journey to find my epic white dog post ceremony and now have Angel who is 2.

Over the course of the ceremony, I again became the music at times, which is something that also happened to me several times on lighter doses of LSD. I again had a non-dual experience. I experienced almost the same thing as on the mushroom journey, but it was more nuanced. Beyond the fact that we are all the universe experiencing itself, I came to understand why we are built differently, and why there is evil. Simply put there cannot be white without black, self without other, or good without evil. The reason there is black and white, yin and yang, masculine and feminine and that we are built with different predispositions is specifically to create contrasts and create more opportunity for experience.

To be clear, when I say that good implies evil, I mean for the possibility of something to be good, there needs to be the possibility of something to be evil. This is not an observation that some people are good, while others are evil. We all contain multitudes and have the potential for both good and evil depending on circumstances. Moreover, everyone thinks they are good. In their eyes Hitler, Stalin and Mao were good guys.   

As Alan Watts very elegantly puts it in The Dream of Life, if every night you dreamt 75 years of time, the first few nights you would fulfill all your wishes and fantasies and have every kind of pleasure. After several nights of total pleasure, you would surprise yourself by letting something happen you did not control. Then you would get more and more adventurous in terms of what you would dream until finally you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today.

This is why the hero’s journey is the quintessential story. Each of our lives is a hero’s journey. We are born knowing nothing. We grow, we learn. At some point we feel we know everything and then really get our teeth kicked in. Then we finally realize that our purpose is to bring our special brand of self to those around us and to be of service to them by being ourselves.

That’s why at the end of the ceremony I felt the overwhelming message of gratitude to others: “Thank you for being you, because it allows me to be me!”

I came to realize the value of antagonists. The same way that in a movie or book, the hero is only as good as his nemesis, the greater the challenges we face in life, the more the opportunity for purpose and the more meaningful our hero’s journey. And while I am a being of light, there needs to be beings of darkness for my light to shine through. 

I also realized that the reason we value so deeply the things we fight for in this universe and end up getting is that it’s the exact opposite of omnipotence. Flow takes infinite practice and effort. When we see it, we appreciate it. It’s also why people for whom success comes too easily, like lottery winners, often lose it all because they do not appreciate how hard it is to succeed.

  1. Other Modalities

What is interesting is that all these experiences felt like work. Someone described Ayahuasca as ten years of therapy in one night. While I have never been to therapy so cannot completely relate, it rang true to me. It’s perhaps why I have not done one of these deep journeys since.

In other words, I have only done these three deep journeys on LSD, psylocibin, and Ayahuasca respectively. I felt like I got what I needed out of them and have not been called to do it again. I am not against the idea of revisiting if I am every called to it, especially if I ever face a large life decision, but for now I feel complete.

That said I still love doing a recreational dose of 1 or 2 drops of acid twice a year, once in Burning Man, and once in nature to experience the true majesty of the universe we live in, feel intimately connected to those around me, and laugh more than I ever imagined possible.

It’s also interesting to note that these experiences along with my Tantra practice have opened me to the point that I am super energy sensitive. I can recreate many features of psychedelic experiences through meditation, breathwork, and attention. It’s as though I laid breadcrumbs during these journeys that gave me the path to access them whenever needed.

While I can get there now absent the medicine, I don’t think I would have been able to if I had not had full blown psychedelic experiences first.

A Word of Caution

Do not take the magical four experiences above as a message that drugs in general are good. Most drugs are terrible for you. They are addictive, toxic, you can easily overdose on them, and suffer horrible withdrawal symptoms. I would never touch cocaine, heroin, opioids (like fentanyl), meth, or crack for instance. I would also avoid weed having seen many people who smoke it regularly seemingly lose part of their motivation and intellect. I have also encountered enough people hooked on ketamine that I am skeptical of its professed non-addictive properties, not to mention I find it less compelling than psylocibin or LSD.

In fact, I would also recommend avoiding legal drugs like alcohol, tobacco, and sugar. Ever more evidence is coming out outlining that there is no safe quantity of alcohol that can be consumed. It’s a neurotoxic poison on top of not being a very compelling substance. I am also horrified by the number of people addicted to vaping. It’s less harmful than smoking cigarettes, but it’s still harmful for your lungs, heart, brain, and long-term health. Likewise, the excess sugar in modern diets burns out your metabolism, makes you gain fat, messes with your brain and gut, and increases your risk for nearly every chronic disease.

While I described the beautiful heart opening which I experienced on MDMA, it’s important to note it was in a beautiful ceremonial setting, with controlled dosage, and rigorously tested for purity. It’s not the same as getting random MDMA, often laced with fentanyl, from a dealer to go to a club, which I see people do on a regular basis. MDMA is neurotoxic and should not be done more than a few times per year spaced many months apart such as not to deplete your serotonin, dull the magic, or negatively impact your sleep and neurochemistry (and I am called to do it less frequently than that). You should also take a neuro protection supplements like the ones found in Roll Kit when taking it.

With LSD and psylocibin, my take is obviously positive but remains nuanced. They are not neurotoxic or physically toxic. They are not addictive and do not create physical dependence or withdrawal. In fact, tolerance builds so quickly with LSD and psilocybin that daily use is nearly impossible. Even better there is increasing evidence that they promote neurogenesis and neuroplasticity.

Despite these positives, not everyone should try them. They do not interact well with SSRIs / SNRIs (e.g., Zoloft, Prozac, Effexor, Lexapro), MAOIs (e.g., Nardil, Parnate, Ayahuasca ingredients), antipsychotics (e.g., Seroquel, Risperdal, Zyprexa), benzodiazepines (e.g., Xanax, Ativan, Valium), and stimulants (e.g., Adderall, Ritalin, Wellbutrin). Don’t try them if you are on any of these.

You should also not do these substances if you have schizophrenia (or a family history of it), bipolar disorder, or severe personality disorders. Moreover, even if you do not suffer from these disorders, you should steer clear if you are generally paranoid or anxious. Psilocybin and LSD amplify your underlying feelings, and you may be in for a very bad trip or panic attack.

I am happy I first tried these at the age of 40 when I was in a position to appreciate the messages I received and not be overwhelmed by them. I would definitely not recommend doing them as a teenager.

If you were called to try what I describe for the first time, I would do a guided ceremonial psylocibin sound journey, with a tiny bit of MDMA to make sure you don’t have a bad trip, organized by a trained practitioner. Ayahuasca is too intense, and LSD lasts too long for a first-time experience. After that first time, I would only do psylocibin or LSD in a ceremonial setting with set, setting, and intention, in a beautiful comfortable safe space, preferably in nature, with very few people you know well and trust.

Philosophy

I find it fascinating that I had these experiences prior to studying non-dualism. I first communed with the divine and had divine revelations. They did not require study and were purely experiential.

After this last experience, I felt compelled to research what I had experienced. As I had seemingly observed reincarnation and seen Hindu representations of life on Earth, I started by looking into Hinduism. Hinduism is diverse, with multiple philosophical schools and theological perspectives. The one that best illustrated what I experienced is Advaita Vedanta.

Advaita Vedanta – “We Are All Brahman”

This school, primarily taught by Adi Shankaracharya, holds that the ultimate reality, Brahman, is singular and formless. The individual self (Atman) is not separate from Brahman; rather, they are one and the same. The famous Upanishadic phrase “Tat Tvam Asi” (That Thou Art) expresses this—suggesting that each person is, at the core, divine. However, due to Maya (illusion), individuals perceive themselves as separate beings rather than as Brahman. Enlightenment (Moksha) is realizing this non-duality and overcoming the illusion of separateness.

With further research, I am across The Egg and realized that many other religious and mystical traditions teach non-dualism. Here are the main ones I came across. For the sake of brevity, I will summarize each philosophy below and you can refer to a summary of each in the appendix.

TraditionKey Non-Dual Insight
Advaita VedantaAtman (self) is not different from Brahman (ultimate reality); separation is illusion (Maya)
Zen BuddhismNo fixed self; dualities like subject/object are mental fabrications—everything is just thus
DzogchenPure awareness (rigpa) and appearances are not two; all phenomena are spontaneous display
Kashmir ShaivismEverything is a manifestation of Shiva (universal consciousness); the world is real and divine
TaoismAll things arise from the Tao; opposites are complementary flows within a seamless whole
Christian MysticismThe soul and God are unified at the ground of being; divine union transcends subject/object
SufismThere is nothing but God (tawhid); self is illusion—true love dissolves the veil of separation
KabbalahAll comes from and returns to Ein Sof (the Infinite); distinctions are steps within the divine emanation
NeoplatonismAll reality emanates from the One; return is through contemplation of the source of all being

In short, I found that non-dualism is everywhere. It’s preached by modern spiritual teachers like Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, and Mooji. It’s also in science: quantum theory, panpsychism, and integrated information theory explore consciousness in ways that rhyme with non-dual insight.

It’s worth noting that the belief is profoundly different from traditional beliefs of Christianity and Islam. In those traditions, God is a personal being, distinct from you. You are a soul He created, and your purpose is to love, obey, and be saved by Him. Heaven is a reward, not a realization of unity.

Alan Watts

Ultimately, the person who most closely summarizes what I experienced is Alan Watts. He was more of a philosophical blender, a brilliant synthesizer of spiritual traditions. He did not create an entirely new religion, but what he did do was weave together elements from Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, and Western mysticism into a uniquely Watts-ian lens that feels modern, accessible, and playful.

He doesn’t treat the world as something to renounce or transcend (as hardcore Advaita might suggest). Instead, he sees the dance of life as sacred and playful. “You are the universe experiencing itself, in a game of cosmic hide-and-seek.” That mythic playfulness is Zen and Taoism. For Alan Watts you are the universe playing itself.

The world is a game. Once you realize life is a game, the only real move is to play it fully, but with awareness, humor, and zero attachment. Do not get tricked into thinking it’s serious business. When you realize it’s all Lila (the Hindu idea of divine play), then you can fully participate in life, but with a wink, like the cosmic joke finally lands.

Where I think many monks get it wrong is that they decide to opt out, to “transcend” and disengage. Zen would call that clinging to emptiness. Watts would say they misunderstood the punchline. The moment you reject the game, you are back in illusion, thinking there is a better, purer state somewhere else.

Play the game. But do not be played by it.

Life as a Game

As a video gamer, the conclusion that this life is a game came readily to me. Prior to any of these experiences, I had already noticed that our lives seem to follow the same rules as role-playing games. We have different preset attributes set before birth. We can level up on a variety of attributes through experience. We have different difficulty settings based on where and when we are born. The only difference is that there is no specific objective. You are not supposed to win the game, get somewhere, or transcend it in the traditional religious sense. You are here to play it, enjoy it, and feel it.

Playing always came naturally to me. As a kid, I found tremendous joy in reading, learning, computers, playing tennis and padel, skiing, paintball, traveling, dogs, video games, and teaching others. My parents kept telling me I would grow out of it, but funnily enough here we are 40 years later, and I find joy in exactly the same things. I even play the same type of video games I played as a kid. In fact, having kids is a great excuse to remain a kid, and keep playing!

My taste for adventure travel is another form of play. I find it exciting to challenge myself to live off grid for a week or two every year whether it’s in rainforests, jungles, deserts, or polar regions like during my Antarctica adventure. I find it interesting to learn the skills to survive without any external support in different environments. It’s also a real privilege to be fully off-grid in this hyper connected world with no meetings, emails, WhatsApp or news. I love that feeling of disconnection and find these weeks to be akin to active Vipassana retreats where you are mostly alone with your thoughts.

During this week or two off-grid, I am typically active 8 hours a day going from camp site to camp site. I setup up my tent, filter water, forage for food, and prepare rehydrated meals. It reminds you that survival used to be a full-time job. Nothing feels better than the first hot shower you take after weeks without showering. You come to truly appreciate the genius of toilets. They must be one of the best human inventions! And that first meal with real food tastes so good. You come out of these experiences with so much gratitude both for the disconnected experience you just had and for the privilege we have of living in this comfortable safe world where we can worry about the meaning of life rather than pure survival.

Now many will suggest that finding joy and meaning in the things you do is all well and good, but is that enough? Shouldn’t there be a more profound meaning to life? When you are playing in the present you are left with spontaneity, flow, compassion, and joy which leads to being kind, generous, and loving. Universally, people find meaning in being of service to others. Being of service takes many forms. Professionally, I use my personal interest and affinity for technology, to build and invest in startups to harness their deflationary power to tackle some of the challenges of the 21st century: climate change, inequality of opportunity and the mental and physical well-being crisis. I love teaching and sharing and feel beyond privileged to lead the life I do. This is why I have an open-door policy with friends and family. I like sharing both the fruits of my labor and life lessons with them. It’s also the reason I write this blog. It helps me structure my thoughts, I love writing, and hope elements of it can be helpful to others.

Note that being of service does not need to be at a large scale. If you are someone’s video game or tennis buddy or good friend, you are of service. There are no small acts of kindness. You may feel your life may be inconsequential but like in the fantastic movie It’s a Wonderful Life, if you were not there doing what you do, it’s very possible that all those people around you who do amazing things might not in a position to do those things.

Because I find great joy in being kind, generous and loving, I do not consider it to be any different than when I play tennis or video games. I lean into what I love doing in all its forms. The one thing in common that all my actions have is that they put an emphasis on the present. None of the people I help will be alive in a few hundred years, but that does not matter. I get meaning from experiencing, helping and being of service now.

Games are not played to win something later. If the purpose of a game were just to finish it, we’d play as fast as possible and end it immediately. But we don’t. We play for the thrill, the creativity, the improvisation, the experience:“The whole point of dancing is the dance.”

People think life is a journey to a goal (success, heaven, enlightenment), but this is a trap of linear thinking.If you live only for results, you miss the music.

Purpose

In a way this universe, simulation or matrix is a new experience generation engine for an otherwise bored immortal deity that found a way out of the Nihilist trap. There is nothing else to do, so might as well have fun playing the game. We are all different in order to have different experiences and our role is simply to play ourselves. Merely by being ourselves we are providing a service to the people around us. It’s very clear when you observe poetry in motion like when you watch Roger Federer play tennis or Lionel Messi play soccer. They are here to entertain us, and we reward them for that.

However, you do not need to reach those heights to be of service. Your skills, humor, and everything that makes you you is of service to those around you. While the actions of this specific incarnation of you is not going to be around in the future and nothing you do will be relevant in the future, it does not mean you do not have purpose. I also feel it strongly at Burning Man where it feels the effort people put into their bodies, costumes, art and offering is an offering and entertainment to everyone else.

Your purpose is to experience the present and to bring whatever brand of magic you have to those around you. It is sufficient to me that I am a being of light and love helping those around me in the present. It brings them joy and given what I have come to believe, I am really helping myself.

What I think people also often get wrong about this philosophy is that they assume it means you should not be ambitious. They are wrong. You still act. You can build things, pursue goals, create art, make money, but not because your worth depends on it. It becomes a form of play, not a desperate struggle to “prove” or “fix” yourself. It’s jazz, not chess.

Likewise, this philosophy does not imply that you should not fall in love, quite the contrary, there is nothing to do but to love. When you fall in love the boundary between “me” and “you” softens. You are not just with them, you are of them. “The meaning of love is not to cling to each other, but to allow each other to be who and what they are.” Love means freedom with connection. You choose each other, but not to complete yourself, only to dance, together, for as long as the dance feels true. “You are the universe experiencing itself in the form of two people pretending to be separate, only to discover that they’re not.” Sex, touch, and intimacy are sacred acts of surrender, not sinful or shameful, but expressions of the One reality delighting in itself.

Conclusion

It’s important to note that all of this comes from my personal experience, which is a singular experience, an n of 1. It may very well represent a limited view and not describe the way the system works as a whole. This post has mostly been about non-dualism because I had such a strong non-dual awakening. However, I suspect that dualism and non-dualism both exist at the same time. We just have trouble tying them together holistically. We may have 3 egos: mind ego, soul ego, spirit ego. We cannot really drop them, but we can harmonize them, which ultimately creates sense of individuality and oneness at the same time (duality and non-duality at the same time). Likewise, the instruments I used along the way fit my journey and may not be generalizable to all. I also feel that everyone’s game is different. The things that I am meant to experience and give me purpose are profoundly different from those of others. We have creative freewill in terms of what we choose to experience.

Also, I cannot prove anything I am writing about. What happened to me may very well have been an epiphenomenon of my brain. However, I experienced it so viscerally and repeatedly that I believe it to be true. This was all the more reinforced by my studying non-dual traditions, Alan Watts, and my experiences of life as a game. The more I embraced this belief of not taking life to seriously and being open, trusting and kind to those around, the more I have been rewarded. I truly believe I am living the best life that has ever been lived.

I realize that it’s easy to say these things from the position of privilege I now find myself in, but regardless of your circumstances it costs nothing to take life a little less seriously, a little more playfully, and to read into the signs the universe is sending you. You might just surprise yourself in terms of where you end up especially since I suspect that my real privilege is being open minded, being able to live life as a game, having min maxed my character stats pre-game by loading up on love, intelligence, and ambition which are rewarded in the current meta of my version of the game, and to have the ability to follow my intuition and purpose. This in turn leads to the other form of privilege I enjoy today.

In the end what I experience is that life is not a means to an end. Life is the end. That’s it. That’s the whole show. You don’t look at a tree and ask, “What’s it for?” Or listen to a song only to get to the end. You live it. You feel it. You dance with it. The meaning of life is the play of life, consciously experienced.

When you drop the idea of yourself as a separate, isolated ego, you dissolve into the flow of life. And there, you realize you are the universe. There’s nowhere to go. There’s nothing to become. You are it. So, the meaning of life, paradoxically, is to wake up to the fact that there’s no need for meaning. You are already living it.

All this to say the answer to the meaning of life is simple: The meaning of life is life itself!

APPENDIX

Zen Buddhism (Especially Soto Zen)

  • Core idea: There is no separation between self and world, mind and body, nirvana and samsara.
  • “No-self” ≠ nihilism — it points to the dropping away of the illusion of an independent ego.
  • Famous Zen saying: “Mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Then mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers. Then mountains are again mountains and rivers are again rivers.”

⟶ Translation: You start off seeing separateness, then awaken to the formless unity, and finally return to form—but with awareness.

Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhism)

  • From the Nyingma school, it teaches rigpa: pure, non-conceptual awareness.
  • Reality is spontaneously perfect and already complete—there’s no path to walk.
  • Non-duality here means awareness and appearance are not-two.

“Everything that arises is the display of awareness.” — Dzogchen Masters

Kashmir Shaivism

  • A non-dual tantric tradition from Northern India.
  • Everything is a manifestation of Shiva (pure consciousness)—not separate from you.
  • Unlike Advaita, it embraces the world, instead of calling it illusion (maya).

“The universe is the divine play (Lila) of consciousness.”

Taoism (Especially in the Tao Te Ching)

  • Doesn’t use the term “non-duality,” but it’s everywhere.
  • Tao is the source of all things, and everything arises from the same undivided flow.
  • The goal is wu wei—effortless harmony with the flow of existence.

“When the great Tao is forgotten, morality and duty arise.”
(Meaning: when you’re in tune with the Tao, you don’t need rules.)

Christian Mysticism (Eckhart, the Cloud, etc.)

  • Meister Eckhart: taught that the soul and God are not separate at the deepest level.
  • Spoke of the “birth of God in the soul”—a direct, non-dual union beyond words.

“The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.”

(That’s pure Advaita in a Christian tongue.)

Kabbalah (Jewish Mysticism)

  • Ein Sof is the infinite, ungraspable unity beyond all forms.
  • The Tree of Life is not just cosmology—it’s a map back to unity.
  • The dualities of creation (male/female, mercy/judgment) resolve in Keter, the crown.

“There is no place where God is not.”

Sufism (Islamic Mysticism)

  • Tawhid means “oneness of God”—but some Sufis (like Ibn Arabi or Rumi) took it all the way:
    • God is not just one—God is the only.
    • The world is God’s self-disclosure.

“I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.” — Rumi

Neoplatonism

  • Ancient Greek mysticism (Plotinus).
  • The One is the source of all being, and everything flows from it.
  • Return to the One through contemplation—not unlike Vedanta.

FJ Labs Q2 2025 Update

Friends of FJ Labs,

Fabrice and team put out a ton of amazing content this quarter which we encourage you to check out if you haven’t already. It was also a busy spring on the investing side with many extremely exciting new investments of note — full detail below!

The FJ Labs Take: The Impact of AI on Marketplaces

AI is having a profound impact on marketplaces by simplifying listings, improving customer service & satisfaction, and facilitating real cross-border commerce for the first time. Instead of fearing the impact LLMs may have on their business, founders should instead focus on the numerous opportunities AI can provide them! Click here for the full article.

Second-hand marketplace Vinted — one of our largest Fund II positions by carrying value — saw revenues and profits soar in 2024 as pre-owned fashion continues to boom. Vinted posted net profit of $87M as sales increased by 36% to ~$1B! (Forbes)

Voice AI startup SuperDial raised a $15M debt and equity Series A led by SignalFire with participation from Slow Ventures and BoxGroup. The company helps U.S. healthcare billing teams replace hours of insurer calls with AI agents. (Fierce Healthcare)

Clutchthe “Carvana of Canada” recently announced it surpassed C$1B worth of total vehicles purchased! With the company on pace to double that number within the next year, Clutch is shaping up to be the breakout winner of our Archangel fund. (Betakit.com)

Palmstreet raised a $25M round from a16z, Craft Ventures, and Headline to scale its livestream shopping platform for rare plants, handmade crafts, crystals, and more. The Palmstreet community has reached over one million members with 5X growth over the past year. (Palmstreet.app)

FJ Labs incubation, Midasa protocol for issuing yield-bearing tokens backed by U.S. Treasuries and other assets, introduced a blockchain-based private credit product structured to track Fasanara’s F-ONE fund. The company has scaled from 0 to $300M TVL in 9 months! (Coindesk)

The VC market is in flux: AI is booming while the rest of venture is in the dumps. Fewer deals are happening at higher prices. New marketplace types are emerging. AI is impacting marketplaces in unexpected ways. In his Venture Market Trends podcast, Fabrice covers it all!

Fabrice recently sat down with Dan Park, CEO of our portfolio company Clutch. Clutch was a highflier in 2021, had a brush with death in 2023 and effected an incredible turnaround. We’re excited for you to hear Dan and team’s impressive story!

Fabrice was recently back on 20VC with Harry Stebbings where he participated in a wide-ranging conversation covering our unique secondaries strategy, how we’re thinking about investing in AI (and what we are avoiding), and the latest in venture trends.

Screenshot

Fabrice had an engaging fireside chatwith Dhruv Sharma, CEO of AngelList India, for Offline, a private members’ community for leading entrepreneurs in South Asia. Fabrice outlines FJ’s main investment heuristics, our current theses, his views on the macro, as well as some fun, personal productivity hacks.

While many others have given up on B2B marketplaces, we continue to lean in. Shout out to Lauren Lee for the article on secondhand procurement marketplacesthat highlights some of our recent investments in the space such as Garage YC W24) and Fleequid.


Copyright (C) 2025 FJ Labs. All rights reserved.

World of DaaS Conversation with Auren Hoffman: Diversified Portfolios, Secondary Sales & Dinner Parties

In this episode of World of DaaS, Auren and I discuss:

  • Ultra-high-volume venture investing
  • What makes a founder truly fundable
  • The rise of secondaries in venture capital
  • How AI is reshaping research, strategy, and daily life

1. Investing Philosophy and Strategy

Fabrice Grinda, founder of FJ Labs, has invested in over 1,200 startups through a high-volume, diversified approach. While diversification aligns with the venture capital power law for maximizing returns, his real motivation is intellectual curiosity. He backs founders who are trying to solve real problems, regardless of their industry or stage. He avoids strict ownership or board seat requirements, choosing instead to support great people doing meaningful work.

2. Operational Model and Founder Evaluation

To handle around 300 deals each week, Grinda’s team filters aggressively and invests in just about one percent of them. He evaluates founders through short meetings, looking for two key traits: strong communication and the ability to execute. Rather than rely on reference checks, he asks targeted questions about business fundamentals. Founders who are both visionaries and strong operators stand out and are more likely to earn his backing.

3. Investment Discipline and Secondaries

Grinda is disciplined about valuation and avoids overpaying, even in hot sectors like AI. He has maintained consistent pricing since 2019 and prefers to invest after hype fades and traction becomes clear. His firm frequently uses secondaries to exit overvalued positions, often selling half to reduce risk. This method has produced steady fund multiples of three to four times and a 30 percent internal rate of return over nearly three decades.

4. Personal Philosophy and Use of AI

Grinda believes in living with joy and curiosity. He sees life as a game and balances intense work with fun, family, and hobbies. He actively uses AI tools like ChatGPT for deep research, real estate analysis, and health planning, replacing traditional tools like Google and Wikipedia. His flexible, travel-based lifestyle allows for both productivity and reflection, helping him stay grounded and creative while maintaining a strong sense of play.

If you prefer, you can listen to the episode in the embedded podcast player.

In addition to the above YouTube video and embedded podcast player, you can also listen to the podcast on iTunes and Spotify.

Transcript

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (00:00.686) Hello, fellow data nerds. My guest today is Fabrice Grinda. Fabrice is the founder of FJ Labs, a venture capital firm that has invested over 1200 startups. He previously built and sold three companies, the CEO, Aucland, one of Europe’s largest auction sites, Zingy, which was a mobile media startup sold for $80 million, and OLX, which is a global classified platform, which operates in over 90 countries and over 150 million monthly users. FJ Labs recently closed a $290 million third fund and is one of the most active venture investors globally. Fabrice, welcome to World of DaaS. Okay, now you and I are long, long time friends, friends for over 20 years. You’re also one of the most prolific investors out there. I mean, you’re literally making like hundreds of investments every year.

Fabrice Grinda (00:43.272) Thank you for having me.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (00:57.87) How did you end up with that model? Like what made you kind of move to that type of model?

Fabrice Grinda (01:04.574) So the intellectual answer would have been, I have done a tap down analysis of what is the proper way to maximize IRR. And I’ve realized that because venture follows a power law, the diversification leads to higher IRRs. And if you’ve done, having done all the research, clearly a diverse portfolio leads to the best returns. And the answer is that is true, but it is actually

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:14.126) Right, exactly.

Fabrice Grinda (01:32.206) not the reason I did that model. I did that model because I followed my curiosity. And whenever I met a founder that was doing something interesting that I’d like to, I was like, I need to back this guy because he’s doing something, he’s trying to solve a problem in the world. And the world is beset with problems. And I think founders basically see these problems and try to find scalable, repeatable, profitable solutions to address them.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:43.235) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:55.31) And just to jump at what you’re saying is like, you see a cool founder, you can’t, if you have like a core ownership requirement or something like that, well then you wouldn’t necessarily always be able to back that founder because they may not have room. Or if you always want to take a board seat, okay, well can’t do that because they may have had someone. So you just kind of backed into it through the other way. Like you just want to back founders, like great founders.

Fabrice Grinda (02:19.038) And whenever I met someone doing something interesting that I thought was solving a problem in the world, I wanted to back them. And when I liked them, I just wrote a check. And it completely bottoms up. I meet someone I like, regardless of stage, category, industry, et cetera. I invest. I don’t see. I don’t invest. And it just led to this very diversified strategy. I think it’s a reflection of my intellectual curiosity. There’s infinite problems in the world, and all these founders are trying to solve all of these problems. And I want to help all of them solve it.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (02:24.982) Yeah, yeah, okay, I love it.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (02:42.529) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (02:48.694) And like, how did you like actually operationalize it? Because like doing hundreds of investments per year means you have to know, let’s say you, but your, least your team has to meet with at least a 10 X more of those types of companies every year. And you have to kind of think of like, how does one like opt actually operationalize that kind of investing strategy?

Fabrice Grinda (03:11.184) And so it happened kind of naturally and organically because I was a very visible consumer facing internet CEO. So I was getting all this inbound deal flow and was just drinking at the five holes of deals. And I hired a first analyst many years ago and to see, could I actually teach them to filter? Because obviously you don’t want someone to pass them the next Uber.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (03:35.917) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (03:36.798) And or send me deals that are not not compelling it and realize that my processes were scalable and repeatable So now we’re nine on the investment team. We get 300 inbound deals a week We talked to like 40 because the others are out of scope. They’re truly there’s too many of them There are they’re in cat it we were not ready to make a call on the on that category and I will speak to three to five and so the that filter of 300 and we invest in three every

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (03:53.101) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (04:05.758) So let’s say 300 at five and then we invest in three. So we invest in 1 % of the deals we see is something that’s worked extremely well.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (04:09.005) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (04:13.292) Interesting. What do think like, is there, is there a, cause at this stage or super early stage, a lot of it’s really about the founder or the founders, right? How does one like do some sort of assessment? I mean, you’re really probably only meeting them a couple of times, right? Like how does one assess like the quality of the founders?

Fabrice Grinda (04:36.444) Yeah, so it used to be just one hour meeting with me. Now, of course, there’s a team. So now it’s like one hour meeting with someone else and then a one hour meeting with me. I’ll tell you how to not to assess founders. Don’t do reference checks. Founders often reference badly because they were not meant to be employees. They were talking back to their bosses. They were working in their startup world or at their job, et cetera. So the way you assess a founder in a one hour call, to me, is easy, actually.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (04:42.04) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (04:56.365) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (05:06.322) I think in one, first of all, humans are inherently social animals. There’s one thing I think we do well is we know whether we like someone or not, and we can gauge chemistry within like 30 seconds or one minute of beating just through the first three interactions. And so the Y value to founder is two vector, two metric. I want one who’s extremely eloquent and an amazing salesperson. And by the way, introverts can actually be very salesy. I think we are probably examples of that.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (05:31.278) Of course, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (05:35.665) and very eloquent. So someone who can weave a compelling narrative because they’re going be able to raise capital at a higher valuation, they’re going to attract better teams, they’re going to get better PD, they’re going to get more PR. But that’s a necessary but insufficient condition because I also want them to be able to execute. And so the way I tease that, whether they’re going be able to execute is actually because I use four selection criteria, not one.

And the second one of which is do I like the business? And so I need them to be able to articulate even pre-launch What that total trust will market size? What do they think the customer acquisition costs looks like whether it’s sales or marketing, etc? What do they what is the contribution margin of the business? What’s the average order value or they in line with the industry number? so I need them to understand know all these things and to be able to articulate what they think the long-term value is relative to the customer acquisition costs and if they haven’t

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (06:25.483) You’re drilling down on those. Like you’re actually asking that specific question. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (06:30.494) Yes, correct. And usually the ones who know the business world, who thought through it, they actually are on top of the numbers and it naturally. And the people that are just like, they have the vision, but they wouldn’t know how to execute, typically don’t know how to answer these questions. Haven’t thought through these. And they’re like, I’ll figure it out. And to me, I need both. I need the Venn diagram in a section of like the great executors and the great salespeople. And that is actually pretty rare. I usually find the founders are in one or the other, not both.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (06:59.694) And then there’s a, sometimes there is a product, I assume quite a lot of times that you can, sometimes you can play with the product or see the product or how important is that?

Fabrice Grinda (07:10.174) So most often, we’re mostly seed investors, not pre-seed investors. And by the way, the reason is I don’t invest in competitors. so you’re the bet. And so often at pre-seed, I see seed. Seed teams, like ideas are in the air that are doing the same thing at the same time. And I feel it’s too early to make the call.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (07:12.652) Yeah. Yep.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (07:25.784) So you don’t show if you, mean, how narrowly do you define a competitor? Because if you’re doing like three deals a week, 150, like there’s going to be some competition that happens around that, right? Or no.

Fabrice Grinda (07:37.854) Well, if they end up competing by the series C or B or whatever, because they…

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (07:41.856) Yeah yeah yeah, you’re talking about, but even right away, right, there’s…

Fabrice Grinda (07:46.012) Right away, no. mean, they can be doing exactly the same thing, the exact same category, attacking the same problem, but usually ideas are in the air. And so if someone’s pitching me an idea, I usually have four other teams pitching me the exact same idea within a one week or two week basis. And we’ll actually go try to talk to competitors and make sure we’re back on the right horse. So we’ll wait. So they see there is a product. Product is very important to me. The, yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (07:48.343) Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (08:02.167) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (08:14.046) Look, my four selection criteria or team business terms and thesis and product speaks to kind of a lot of these, like do I think you’re solving a fundamental problem in the world that I care about? Are they able, have they built something interesting, which means they’re probably a good team, et cetera. So it speaks to all of these different factors.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (08:35.032) that a lot of your investments have been historically outside the US. You’ve been finding these great founders who are outside the US more than most people, or you’re shaking your head, so maybe I’m wrong about that.

Fabrice Grinda (08:49.246) I have, well, I used to invest maybe 50 % on, so actually if I go back to 2012, because obviously I’ve been angel investing, investing since 98, in 2012, I think 50 % of our investments were like Russia, China, Turkey, and there are countries I don’t invest in anymore because there’s been profound geopolitical shifts and we’re now in Cold War II. And you know, so.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (08:57.997) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (09:09.475) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (09:16.67) Stopped investing in China after Xi Jinping disappeared Ma and I stopped investing in Russia after Crimea was invaded and Turkey after Erdogan, you know started like

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (09:25.314) She stopped investing in Russia in 2014. Okay.

Fabrice Grinda (09:28.414) Yes. Yeah, I see. I see. We had like several unicorn investments there that after the Crimea invasion, basically the American VCs like stopped wanting to back these amazing companies and then the oligarchs took over the companies for nothing. So we really stopped all these things. Now, because our relax is so big and so many emerging markets, we have a lot of deal for internationally. But no, our we’re 50 percent. We’ve always been 50 percent US and Canada, 25 percent Western Europe.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (09:43.809) Yeah

Fabrice Grinda (09:57.342) 15 % by 10, which used to be mostly Brazil, that is Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia, and 10 % of the rest of the world, which is mostly India. So we’re still like majority US. But in the US, because I do read inbound, like cold inbound emails, and over half the deals are cold inbound emails, and of course, they’re the lowest quality, but also some of the…

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (10:06.518) Okay. Yep.

Fabrice Grinda (10:20.604) the nuggets because it’s a non-traditional founder who didn’t go to Stanford, it’s not connected to the community. He has like series B level traction, but he happens to be in Arkansas and you can invest in like C valuations at a B level traction company and we can help so much because that founder doesn’t know how to raise, et cetera.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (10:30.072) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (10:36.854) yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you’re, you’re actually finding these kind of like Arkansas nuggets type of thing.

Fabrice Grinda (10:43.644) Well, we’re also finding the short tail. mean, we were in Baba and Uber and Airbnb and Instacart. So we’re finding kind of everything, but we are, some of the more interesting deals, like in Brazil, they wouldn’t be the ones from Sao Paulo, but they’re like the one from Belo Horizonte and they linked in in-mail messages to the Instagram message would be on LinkedIn and they weren’t connected. And we just came in and were able to inflect their business because of the role we play.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (10:46.306) Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (11:09.122) Now when you’re investing in like Western Europe, are those companies still like, are they still like Delaware C-Corps often or how do they, how are they set up usually?

Fabrice Grinda (11:18.254) No, they’re usually not because most, yeah, they’re usually incorporated whatever country they’re in. But the good news is now there’s robust VC ecosystems around the world. And so we have a VC partners for France, for Germany, for the UK, for Spain, for Brazil, for Mexico. And so we bring the deals to them in those countries and we don’t need to go to the US companies.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (11:40.686) It’s interesting because I think we’ve probably done four deals recently where the founders are all based in Western Europe and all four, again, this is like a small N, but all four, they were Delaware C-Corps, even though none of the people were actually based in the US.

Fabrice Grinda (11:58.79) Are they trading the US market though?

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (12:00.782) Well, everybody targets the US market. I mean, it’s, know, so and, know, later on, you know, maybe one of the founders, I did eventually move here or something like that. But yeah, that was just a I was just surprised to see that. Is it so easy to set up a Delaware scene nowadays?

Fabrice Grinda (12:14.467) It happens. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. It’s not that common. It used to be, the way, many Europeans didn’t target the European, the US market. mean, yes, the Finnish and the Swedes and the Nordic people. Yes, but like the French, the Germans and even the Brits would like target the European market. And so they that didn’t necessarily make sense.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (12:27.267) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (12:34.21) Yeah.

Now, third criteria you mentioned was price. Like, how does one think about that? those prices for some of these deals, mean, while some of these YC companies are now trading at 30 posts, some of them even higher than 30 posts. Like, how do you think about price these days? And how do you stay disciplined on price?

Fabrice Grinda (12:39.901) Yes.

Fabrice Grinda (12:55.826) The, so we do so many deals where we see the 300 deals a week. We invested 150 to 200 companies every year. So we have a very good sense of what we think the median is. And we also use the look at the data of the median. So we know where the median pre-seed seed, A, B, C deals are out there. And we’ve tracked it over time and we’ve stayed very consistent or are.

So right now, the major trend in BC, in Q1, 71 % of investments in the US were in AI. And the AI deals are trading, depending on the category, between 69 % and 300 % premium to the median valuation.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (13:38.286) And by the way, like 100 % of YC companies are AI. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (13:41.982) Yeah, and 100%. That’s true. so YC for instance, it prototypically, I would not invest in YC. I go to YC, I look at the best deals there, and I wait around or two, and usually the price normalizes with traction. And so I ended up investing, I just invested in a company, an amazing company called Garage, which is a marketplace for fire trucks. And I think I don’t remember the way YC price was like maybe 30 or 40.

We’re now two years later, they’re doing two million a month and invested at like 50. And so on a risk adjusted basis, investing in the next few rounds makes a lot more sense. But they do filter and find a lot of great companies, but I’m not paying 30 pre. And right now my pre-seed median is roughly six million and my seed is like.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (14:12.674) Yeah. Okay. So way better. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (14:29.506) Whoa, six million posts?

Fabrice Grinda (14:31.964) Yeah, one at five. Precede.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (14:34.208) Wow, that’s like, that’s, that’s the, that’s what you and I, mean, you and I, when we were investing 20 years ago together, that’s actually what we were investing at. You were investing at six posts.

Fabrice Grinda (14:43.816) No, but those might have been seed deals back in the day, now they’re pre-seed.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (14:46.062) Sure. Oh, no, no. Well, I don’t think so. I mean, when we did Bright Roll, it was a five pre, six post deal. That was 2006, almost 20 years ago.

Fabrice Grinda (14:54.782) Yeah, but they were, I think they were live the attraction. I think you might’ve called that an A though. I mean, it was like pretty ridiculous. it wasn’t, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I’m still seeing a lot of those deals. My seed, my median seed right now is like 14 pre-16 posts. Sorry, 12-3 raising three-four, like 15 posts, 16 posts. And my median, by the way, my median A is like 30 and my median B is like 60. And, and, and, and, and.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (15:02.742) Sure, but it was the first Mighty End.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (15:17.57) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (15:23.128) Okay.

Fabrice Grinda (15:24.254) And the difference is the mean is being pushed up by these insane AI deals. the market median is way higher than we are because of AI. And that’s the beauty of being contrarian. I’ve kind of kept, I actually just looked at my valuations at 21 versus 22 versus 2019. And we’ve actually been pretty consistent across the board. Our valuation ranges were more or less the same, 2019 all the way to 25.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (15:29.153) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (15:52.174) Because you would think like, just to push back little bit, you would think, let’s say, the valuation of a C deal should go up every year roughly the amount that the market goes up. So if the market goes up 10%, so you think like every seven years or so that the valuations would double, that’s what one would think. But what you’re saying is like, they’ve really been flat. They’ve not been going.

Fabrice Grinda (16:21.918) For the last seven or eight years, they’ve been flopped, and perhaps because 21 was also inflated, and so then it compressed. But in our case, our valuations in 21 were the same as valuations in 19 or 18. The later stage valuations have gone up a fair amount. But we also, because we are so difficult in price, we actually didn’t do anything. Look, in February 21, I wrote this blog post entitled, Welcome to the Everything Bubble. And I said, because of overly loose fiscal monetary policy, every asset class is correlated one other way up.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (16:26.134) Yes, yeah, yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (16:32.045) Wow.

Fabrice Grinda (16:49.882) sell, if it’s not anchored to the ground, sell it. I mean, everything private credit, public’s real estate, bonds, stocks, and of course, private liquid tech companies. And there were some you could sell secondaries. And now of course, we, we sold, think a 10th of what we wanted to sell, but whenever SoftBank or Tiger came in, we sold. And right now, again, being a trillion, we are doing everything except AI. So if there’s a, now every company I invested in uses AI is technically an AI company, but they’re not like the

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (16:57.144) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (17:16.622) Of course.

Fabrice Grinda (17:18.91) for underlying LLM companies. Yeah, too much competition, not enough differentiation on the data modes, valuations are insane. I think there’s a race at the bottom of pricing because there’s 10 of them doing the same thing. And then there’s open AI ever expanding and eating at what they’re doing. And then there’s orthogonal risk of people coming in and disrupting them.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (17:20.588) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (17:39.946) I want to pull on the thread that you were just mentioning me secondary. like as VCs, especially early stage VCs, we’re trying to be good at investing, essentially good at buying at some point. And then usually traditionally in VCs just wait until the company does something, maybe the company sells or the company IPOs. And then at that point, they have some sort of DPI and they kind of move on.

But there’s another way to be a little bit more proactive, which is to sell secondaries in an ongoing company or to pare down one’s exposure. You don’t have to sell the whole thing. could sell 25 % of your holdings and stuff like that. How do you, first of all, how do you think about that? Like how does, how does one evaluate the selling side of it? That that’s just a, that’s a muscle that I’m trying to build myself.

Fabrice Grinda (18:27.39) So we have a different investment committee for choosing investment companies and for follow-on. So we have a portfolio investment committee. In the portfolio investment committee, we present the companies as though we were non-existing investors. Knowing what we know, so it’s a completely de novo evaluation of the team, of the company, of the traction. knowing what we know now, the company, of the traction, of the valuation, if we were non-existing investors, would we be investing in this round? And if the answer is no, because they’re not doing well, then we do nothing.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (18:43.64) Yep.

Fabrice Grinda (18:56.638) usually can’t sell. answer is no, because they’re amazing and we love them, but the price is insane. It’s 100 X ARR and it’s going to take years to grow into it. And we’re not to be compounding at our own IR. So we’ve been compounding at like 30 % IR for like 27 years. So we don’t think there’s a 10 X that’s going to continue compounding. If there’s an opportunity, we try to take some off the table. Now these secondaries can happen in two ways. Either there’s a round happening.

And there are three VCs whatever Greylock and Greeson and Sequoia that all want in they all want 15 % the founder doesn’t want through 45 % dilution But once all three of them in because he doesn’t want them to back competitor So that’s when there’s usually a secondary happening either at a flat or maybe 10 15 20 percent discount to the round and in these cases where it’s overvalued we sell 50 % typically just because it’s

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (19:49.932) You’ll sell you so how does one determine the amount that one’s pairs down and stuff?

Fabrice Grinda (19:57.15) If it’s massively overvalued and it’s like 100 XAR, it’s gonna take forever to grow to it, then maybe we sell 75%. If it’s, you know, still risky, it’s overvalued, but not insane, maybe 25%. But on average, I would say sell 50%. 50%, and there’s the magic 50 % is as follows. It goes to zero, I made 10X, I’m happy. It goes to the moon, the 50 % is big enough that it can ride and will keep us happy.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (20:14.36) Okay.

Fabrice Grinda (20:26.376) selling 50 % of these moments and sometimes we’ll sell 50%, we’ll rebuy in the next round, we’ll resell again in the next round, et cetera.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (20:32.898) Yeah, OK. And sometimes you were like, sold some of my I sold, you know, maybe 30 percent of my SpaceX holdings in a secondary year ago. And then since then, you the marks gone up like, you know, so, you know, some you can make you can make. made a mistake maybe by selling earlier or something. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (20:51.218) Yeah. So, so look, the things that I think can keep compounding like crazy, like open AI or space sucks, I probably wouldn’t, stripe or whatever, I probably wouldn’t be selling by that because they, don’t know where the ceiling is there, but there are many companies where I think there is a ceiling and now they’re growing.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:01.41) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:04.942) Yeah, it’s a vertical SaaS company or whatever and it’s already worth it.

Fabrice Grinda (21:08.222) You know, it’s logarithmic and they’re now in the part of the curve where it’s slowing down and now they’re growing 30 % year on year. Like there’s no 10X from here, maybe it’s a 2 to 3X and a PE buyer is very happy with that. I’m not happy with that because I need my 10X and so time for me to exit. And % of VCs have not used secondaries yet, partly because if you own 20 % the, 73 % of VCs have not used secondaries yet.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:17.73) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:23.715) Yep.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:29.282) Sorry, what did you just say? Seven?

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:34.754) Have what, seconders? So they’ve just never, never sold, never sold. They basically only wait until the company does something.

Fabrice Grinda (21:35.996) I’ve not used secondaries.

Fabrice Grinda (21:44.19) Well, there are two reasons for that. One is if you’re on the board, you own 20 % of the company. If you don’t do your parada, the company dies, right? Like it’s a negative signal. Yeah, and even if you’re not on the board.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (21:49.794) Yeah. If you’re on the board, you have to do it. So you kind of like, cause it just like, it just looks weird. You would have to get off the board if you’re selling secondary. Right.

Fabrice Grinda (21:56.956) Yeah, but frankly, even if you’re not on the board, if you’re in 20 % of the company, it’s like, what do they know that I don’t know why are they selling? Right? Like.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (22:02.262) Of course. Yeah, exactly. So if you own a massive chunk, it’s a lot easier for you and I since we own a very small percentage of the company.

Fabrice Grinda (22:09.19) Exactly. By the way, there are two ways to do secondhand. One is in the new rounds, when there’s buyers that are interested, the VCs. And then the second way is through the platforms and the brokers, the forges of the world, et cetera. The problem with that is that only works for the very, that’s a super short tail. Like there’s only liquidity in like 10 names or actually five names.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (22:28.248) Correct.

And you never really know if when someone reaches out to you, if they actually have a buyer, right? So it’s always somewhat like, are they just like ginning up a deal and this could be a huge waste of your time.

Fabrice Grinda (22:35.528) Correct.

Fabrice Grinda (22:41.47) Yeah, so we have a disposition committee. the way, the one VC that does this well, that is large and has board seats, is Lead Edge. Lead Edge also has a disposition committee and they make sure that they find exits for companies. Now they do it obviously at a much larger scale. We do it with like, we have two or three percent of the companies, which also makes it easier for us. But the majority of our exits, and so look, first of all, we’ve had exits in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, when most people have not had exits. And the majority of our exits come in the form of secondary.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (22:56.675) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (23:07.478) Yeah, which is great.

Okay. The majority got it. So you’re, you’re, you’re at your, the nice thing is then you get, get, you get the money back to your LPs and you know, et cetera.

Fabrice Grinda (23:20.798) Exactly. So we get DPI. So because we’re so diversified, we are never going to be a top-down self-fund. Basically, we’re at 3X funds every time, or 3 4X, and we’re at 30 % IRR. in good times and bad times, we’re always that.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (23:36.846) 30 % IRR is not top decile. I know it’s not top 5%, but you don’t think it gets you to top 10?

Fabrice Grinda (23:42.15) No, it’s, we’re typically somewhere in that near the top quartile, sometimes in it, sometimes right below it. Now the thing is the problem is people look at us against one fun vintage. They should look at us across 10 fun vintage, right? They should look at us over 27 years. Then we would totally be at the very top. But where we rock is DPI because most, these days venture.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (23:59.703) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (24:09.052) You know, venture is not really a 10, 12 year asset class, right? The 10 plus one plus one. It’s really a 20 year asset class, right? Like it’s space sex. think I’m in through founders fund too. I think we invest in December, 2007. You know, we’re 18 years in, I’m very happy to be 18 years in, but that fund has been extended, extended, extended. I’m happy to keep extending it. The best companies stay private forever. Yeah. The best companies stay private. The best companies stay private forever. Right? Like, and so.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (24:18.328) Yeah.

Yes.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (24:24.684) Yep. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of the best performing funds of all time. Like, I’ve been that fun too. And I’m very happy to be PLV.

Fabrice Grinda (24:37.874) The notion that the SASA class is 12 years is really false. It’s really 15 to 20 years, and the best companies keep compounding.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (24:49.206) Interesting. What is there when you think about your LPs that like, is there a certain type of LP that you prefer over others or how do think about it on the other side of the of leisure? You know, that’s your quote unquote, your customer, your your other customer.

Fabrice Grinda (25:10.95) Actually, we forgot to admit. So the place where we are top top that cell is DPI because we do second. So we’re top that’s all the guy. Okay. So. Look, the idea, my, my, the LPs, I, the ideal LP for me would be someone that believes in the strategy we have and just writes us a check every time, in every fund. it kind of like, look, we, we, we love, we love the diversification. We love the performance. We love the fact that you get amazing SVPs.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (25:15.084) Yeah. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (25:39.558) Amazing deals given they need so much deal flow and and we’re here every time I have not found that LP yet Because most LPs I find or pro cyclical in 21

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (25:46.742) You

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (25:52.159) Yeah, they’ve got their own liquidity issues, they’ve got their own diversification issues that they’re trying to do.

Fabrice Grinda (25:58.11) Exactly. In 21, they’re I’m, they’re flush with cash. I want to invest like crazy. Invest in tech in 23, 24, 25, when I’m like, this is the very best time to invest in everything except the guy. Uh, give me cash. And they’re like, no, we’re overexposed to venture. We’ve had no distributions. Uh, and so people end up being pro cyclical. And that’s true of family offices. That’s true of pension funds, endowments, socials. I think it’s true across the board. It’s true of corporates. Now, RLP base has been

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (26:12.749) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (26:26.686) Amazing other founders Like whatever new rational way fair Reid Hoffman like the people mafia like you will be known common the But they write like swell checks every time to family offices often being disrupted by tech So like the Walgreens and coal each other and like three it’s been like corporates that that want to buy a lot of the companies that we invest in or one understand whether the trends are so it’s been like the

NASPR is process I have into Axel Springer eBay, etc but There’s kind of churn across the board and also later stage funds like tiger you wanted like, you know to invest in in in the follow-ons now You know a lot of these corporates we have were bought by private equity And so they’re not investing in us anymore the later stage funds like tiger and they’re like really that active don’t need lead gen They’re not they’re turning

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (27:08.238) Information. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (27:17.229) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (27:22.15) a lot of the family offices or pro cyclists. I haven’t found that perfect investor. Now, I wish and I’m hoping and I’m trying for fund four, we’re just opening right now fund four. We just finished deploying fund three. It’s a three year deployment schedule. It’s a flat $300 million fund. I’m hoping that we can go institutional for the first time and get maybe more permanent capital. The issue we’re facing is they don’t love diversified strategies because they feel that their job is to get diversification by investing in 20

concentrated funds and then they end up having an implied portfolio of 500 companies. So I’m kind of doing their job for them and so they don’t really get it. Even though I’m specialized in like acid light network, effective marketplace, businesses, it’s not a strategy that has resonated with that many as usual.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (28:09.238) Yeah. It’s interesting because if you are concentrated seed fund and you are not a benchmark, like you don’t have the brand name of a benchmark, it’s very possible that because if you have ownership requirements, it’s very possible that the self-selection of the companies that would let you invest are not the ones you want to invest in. It’s very, you know, it’s often, it’s often many companies have an extra, let’s say one to 500 K.

that you can invest in, they rarely have an extra $2 million at the seed.

Fabrice Grinda (28:43.242) Yeah, you and I, because we’re writing small checks like 200, 300K, 100K, anyone will let us in. And we’re value added, they love us, we’re friendly, we decide that quickly, we’re not onerous in any way, shape, or form. But yeah, if creating a seed fund and there’s slow ventures and benchmark, whatever the other side, yeah, why would they let you in?

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (28:47.394) Yeah, you could always get it. Yeah. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (28:59.916) And what is it like nowadays? What does it mean to be founder friendly? Like do you, is that a positioning that you take or how does one think about that?

Fabrice Grinda (29:10.066) the, so yeah, I thought long and hard, what is my value proposition, but the founders, right? And in a world where primary or Andre said, have like platforms and like whatever recruiters, I don’t know the AUM, I can’t afford any of that stuff. And I’m like, okay, what is my superpower? And I think that the core one that we do is we can help them fundraise. And in this environment, especially if not in AI, is super powerful because we’re not leading, we’re not pricing.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (29:15.426) Right.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (29:23.98) Yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (29:37.822) We have basically these very strong relationships with like 100 VCs where we share a deal flow with them. And we stack ranker portfolio and we will bring them the very best companies that are appropriate for them in terms of stage, category, et cetera. So it’s kind of a win-win-win. The founders love it because we tell them, you want to send reporting, great. You don’t want to send reporting, that’s fine too. I just want to talk to you once a year. Once a year, when you’re going to fundraise, let’s review your debt. Let’s review your pitch. Let’s think through if you’re ready to raise.

what do we think the correct metrics are for raising, who the correct VC is, we’ll make the intro, we’ll write the blurb, because we make the intro, it’s a 95 % conversion rate to an acceptance. We’ll get you to the PISH meeting, we’ll then back channel until we get you to a term sheet. So the VCs love it because they get differentiated deal flow that’s filtered. The founders love it because they get funded and they get access to the best VCs in the world. And we love it because the companies get funded. And by the way, in return, those VCs typically invite us to their deals and we get the

300k checks here. this works extremely well now. Beyond that, I will spend personal time with the top 20 % of the portfolio in terms of helping them through strategy, etc. like in marketplace dynamics. And of course, they find that extremely bad.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (30:50.496) And how do you think about things like things like pirated rights and some of these other kind of rights that are helpful?

Fabrice Grinda (30:59.164) I ask for them every time like preemptive, right? I said that, but if I don’t get them, that’s fine too.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (31:04.118) Okay, got it. Interesting.

Fabrice Grinda (31:05.758) So we asked her a side letter, look, we didn’t write a big enough track to meet the criteria of majority investor, but would you mind giving it to us? And I’d say over 50 % of the cases, get it. But my learning is that paper is not worth the paper. It’s not worth it. Exactly. The founders can do whatever they want. And so if you treat them well, they’re happy with you, they’re going to let you in. They’re going to find a way to get you to invest, et cetera. if they don’t like you, even if you have it on paper,

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (31:15.213) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (31:20.674) You still have to help. you’re not helping, they’re not going to let you.

Fabrice Grinda (31:35.098) They can not give it to you because they’ll say, the investors are wondering, whatever. So I think what matters more is be actual, not in theory, but in practice, be founder friendly.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (31:47.118) Now, assuming you’re assessing a company, you’re meeting with the founders, I assume most of the time it’s over video. It’s not in person. Is that right? How do you think about that? would it have been, obviously you can’t do it in person, but would it be better in person or do you think it’s not mattering much or?

Fabrice Grinda (32:05.89) I’m obviously I’m based in New York, right? So I meet the New York founders, but the New York founders of the entire portfolio. Yeah, so of the 1200, maybe I’ve met 100, right? Like, so we’re not even talking 10%.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (32:07.202) Yeah, sure.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (32:15.682) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (32:19.294) I find that actually chemistry, vision, ability to sell, et cetera, comes across well, even in video. I was in early, so I started investing in 1998. I was using Skype. So the first investments were all made over Skype back in the day. And so I was a digital native to investing as an angel. And so kind of nothing changed. Like the Zoom transition in COVID, like I was already there. So is it helpful? Yeah. It would be to build better rapport.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (32:32.909) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (32:40.94) Yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (32:48.606) but I think it’s helpful at the margin versus, you know, I think most of what I need gets through and I’ve source it’s on video. It’s not just voice. and the way I have these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, the way I run these meetings, so I’m doing the second calls these days. I don’t have them retail the entire story. Like I’ve read the notes, I’ve read the deck. I have like questions. I like, I literally go in Q and a, right? Like, so it’s, it’s always like, Hey,

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (32:56.78) Yeah, a video is helpful because you can see the facial expressions and other types of things.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (33:10.348) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (33:13.911) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (33:15.39) This is my understanding what your business is. Am I right or wrong? If I’m wrong, like correct me. And it’s a conversation. And so it’s never someone pitching me reading a deck. That you can practice. Someone can actually be very good at like doing the same deck 50 times or 100 times because every VC makes them repeat it over and over again. But if you go drill down like really conversational and we go deep in avenues and you don’t comment, et cetera, then I get a much better sense for like, know, are they really at the top of everything?

And because I know Marketplace as well, I’m going to ask them about the elasticity of supply and demand and how do they think it’s detailed enough because I know what I’m about that I can evaluate whether there’s a there there.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (34:00.524) You’ve written a lot about that so many of these great companies were founded during recessions during the years. why is that true? Is it really true? If so, why is that? Like, why would that be?

Fabrice Grinda (34:14.984) So it is true, it’s not, amazing companies are funded in blue beers as well, to be clear. Now, some companies, I can make arguments for why they are really the product of recession, right? Like in Airbnb’s case, it really takes, it took a cultural shift to be willing to have someone come and live in your house or stay in your house, whether you’re there or not. And the fact that people were in financial,

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (34:19.808) Yes, yeah, yes.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (34:41.752) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (34:45.082) Dire straits in 2008 2009 2010 men they were more willing to actually monetize their primary asset Which is real estate in a way that they weren’t before it’s anything with uber right? Like if you if if you need an extra source of income your it was an easy way Easy-ish way to make 20 30

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (35:01.986) Yeah, or even a Zynga like more people were willing to they want they needed free entertainment. So playing like a free to play game or something like that was probably a thing.

Fabrice Grinda (35:08.894) Exactly. And so in this environment where cash is limited, you’re willing to find ways, new ways to monetize and were to entertain yourself that are cheaper. And so it’s helpful on multiple levels. It’s helpful there. Number two, it’s helpful because instead of having 27 companies funded doing the exact same thing, which basically brings the economics and brings off the cost of equity and costs, you bring pricing down and destroys potentially the value of the business because there too many competitors, you only have one or two.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (35:27.917) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (35:38.282) And it’s not fair weather founders. You have like the true believers of doing it because it is their life’s mission and they need to do this no matter what. And as a result, they’re more likely to win the category and they’re more likely to succeed. And so I like it. You’re coming in at a more reasonable valuation. There’s less competition and people are more willing to try something.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (35:44.941) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (36:00.046) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Okay. I like that as well. And even like hiring talent, might be easier to get great talent during that time. Um, now is there, I assume you track deals that you’ve passed on that did well, right? Uh, something that we do is we, we track things. Okay. We passed on this deal. We did well, or, you know, sort that we also even track on deals we didn’t even see that did well. We’re like, why didn’t we see that deal? Like, how do you, do you have a

Fabrice Grinda (36:05.955) Absolutely. Absolutely.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (36:27.15) process of actually going back in time and looking at these things to get better.

Fabrice Grinda (36:32.604) Yes, but I’m not sure I would get better and well, a few things. So many deals that are amazingly passed on because of price and they went on to do very well. But when I actually look at all the other ones I passed on because of price that ended up not doing well, often because of price, like they didn’t go into valuation, the blended return of that anti-portfolio is actually lower than my current return. And so I don’t regret passing on price even though

There’s a few exceptions. The exceptions are, you know, like I passed on the $2 billion Uber round. They were doing 100 million GMV, 18 million net revenues, losing 18 million a month. Right. So was looking at the numbers and I’m like looking at these numbers and they’re raising 2 billion. And by they were growing like this and I love the product and I love the two. I loved everything. And I started my investment memo debrief by saying, I will regret this decision for the rest of my life.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (37:14.94) yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (37:30.6) But having looked at the numbers, I cannot in good conscience justify investing in two billion valuation. Listen to myself. When I start a sentence, I say, I will regret this decision for the rest of my life, you make the investment. You hold up your nose and you make the investments. So when it’s something magical and special on a rocket ship, go like whatever, OpenAI, SpaceX, you do it.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (37:34.734) You

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (37:39.854) For the rest of my life, yeah. We probably should have asked, yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (37:58.536) There’s very, very, very few.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (38:02.478) One of the other things we do at Flex Capital is we track deals that we didn’t see that, you know, later seem to be doing well or whatever. And then we try to go back like, why didn’t we see it? What was going on? What was happening? know, I know you have most of your deals through inbound. We, you know, we do a lot of outbound as well. So like, are you are you looking at any of those things? It’s like, OK, this is a clear winner. Like, I wish we would have seen.

Anthropic, for instance, like we never saw anthropic as a deal. would have been great to have seen it. You know, even if we decided to pass on it, it would still have been great to have seen it.

Fabrice Grinda (38:41.086) In marketplaces, network, and fact sheet businesses, we see probably 97 % of the deals. Very few we don’t see. And if we want in, we get in 95 % of them. Now there are a few we don’t get in. Despite the fact that we commit, all of sudden, Andreessen, Securag, Greylock get too ownership hungry and we end up getting cut off even though we only want a couple hundred K.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (38:47.884) Whoa, okay, it’s crazy. Yep.

Fabrice Grinda (39:10.942) It happens very rarely. on the 1200, like how many of these deals were there have been? Maths 20 more. So it’s not a big source of concern in our case, but obviously we don’t, we’re reasonably narrow from the things we look at. So we didn’t see entropic nor would we’ve looked at it or expected to see it either.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (39:18.189) Okay.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (39:31.212) Yeah, yeah, totally. Switching topics. You are super interested in gadgets. You have a gadget guide. And, you know, a lot of them are like, you think just like one of things I love about you is like you’re, you’re about like having fun. know, so many people like have these gadgets like for productivity and stuff like that. But so many things you care about are really just like to have nothing to do with productivity. They’re literally just about like having a good time.

Fabrice Grinda (39:52.295) You

Fabrice Grinda (40:00.102) Life should be fun. Look, it’s a game. I’m a gamer and perhaps because I’m a gamer, I see this world through the lens of gaming. Now you only get one life with this avatar, but it really feels to me like it behaves like a video game. So it’s kind of hard to take a lot of these things seriously. And I love what I do, right? And so the, I don’t know, like the philosophy of Alan Watts, like the Zen, Taoism, where…

you know it’s a game, but you play the game and as a result, and you do it with like zest and humor and grace, I think always resonates with me. Like having kids, so I have a four year old and a one year old, like allows me to be an even bigger kid. Like I actually wouldn’t like, when he’s building train sets, I realized I like building train set. I like building the magic tiles and like we have remote control cars and planes and helicopters. Like we have the best time ever.

Like, I don’t know, people take this world and this life way too seriously. Like, I love what I do because I think it’s doing something meaningful and purposeful in the world, but I do it again with fun. I, and.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (41:10.814) more of a macro question, but like, do think people are more serious today than they were 20 years ago or is the same or less or like are people silly enough?

Fabrice Grinda (41:23.126) I think the answer people want to give intuitively is, oh, people are taking these things, oh, so seriously today, et cetera, and they’re not having fun in levity. I don’t think that’s true. People have always taken the world affairs very seriously. And if you think back, like 1960s, or like the desegregation movement, the anti-war riots, like people were taking things.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (41:46.018) Yeah, you had violence in Europe all over, and you know.

Fabrice Grinda (41:48.894) We had like, you know, like the lines for oil and like people were taking things were very massive researches like very somber I think things extremely serious. I don’t think people were taking like the game of the life is taken more seriously. I think that people should take it and and yeah, so I think in all times people were too serious like you should should have more fun and play with things and you age better. You have a much better life frankly like

To me, it’s all the game. I realize that I’m speaking of a position of privilege. even if you’re, imagine you’re a bus driver and you have to drive a bus every single day. If you see it as like, this is this dreary thing I need to do on an ongoing basis. Yeah, you’re going to burn out. But if you make a game out of it, it’s like, okay, how quickly can I do the route? like today I like, you know, only do it just saying the right, like whatever, like gamify your life and make it fun.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (42:44.466) Toy. I just I was just in Italy. So I come in on I came in on one day and left on the next day to kind of a quick trip on the one day I come in and the immigration guy, you know, this Italian immigration guy, this guy stamps your passport. He was hilarious. He was making jokes. He was making like we were having fun. I was with my son. They were like it was just like he was just like all and then like on the way out, we had this like super grumpy guy, right, which is very grumpy. It’s like

Fabrice Grinda (43:01.523) Yeah!

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (43:13.132) You want to be the first guy. Like the first guy was just having such a good time. had the same job, but like he just clearly enjoyed his job a lot more. Yeah. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (43:18.448) Exactly. It doesn’t matter what you do, just just have fun with it. Like, don’t take it so seriously. And that’s why I know I look I love kitesurfing. I love playing tennis. I playing paddle. I like camping backcountry skiing. Look, I’ve taken my son to do all these things and paragliding and like, we have a blast like saving people take parenting too seriously, like for the most part, you’re not going to kill your kid. And it’s good for them to take like controlled risks. And so good to like, don’t stop living your life become parent.

You do all the things you used to do and you do it with your kids. Like it’s one more thing you can do together. It’s amazing and it’s fun.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (43:54.286) What have you, because you’re a relatively recent parent, you also have an adopted daughter, but you’re relatively recent on the zero to one parenting side. How has that changed you?

Fabrice Grinda (44:10.59) hasn’t really changed me in any way. I still do the same things.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (44:11.95) Yeah, don’t seem, you don’t see, mean, I’ve you for a long time, you don’t seem to be that much different.

Fabrice Grinda (44:16.51) No, it’s like it’s allowed my inner child to express itself even more, right? Like I would roll around the road, the mud with my puppies and my dogs and other people’s dogs actually. But now like I can even play more like it’s yeah, it’s like it’s an excuse for more play and more fun in life. And and yeah, we have a blast now. I have an amazing life partner who is clearly I’m the gut cop and my role is play.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (44:20.813) Guess.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (44:32.183) Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (44:41.758) And I’ve embraced that role and I will embrace it for rest of my life. And it’s amazing!

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (44:41.764) huh.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (44:48.782) Now, you’re also like personally using AI. What are you kind of like using it for that you think other people could use it more for?

Fabrice Grinda (45:00.668) I use AI for, like I have hours long conversation with GPT every day. yeah, philosophy, research. So I’m thinking of move.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (45:06.924) hours.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (45:12.95) And what does that take in the play? Was that taking place of like when you were reading? that taking place of conversations you have with other people? What is that? What’s the time displacement happening?

Fabrice Grinda (45:24.114) The, first of all, it’s replaced Google completely. It’s right there. That was quick. Yeah, it’s rabbit holes. It’s replaced Wikipedia rabbit holes for sure. YouTube, to some extent, but it’s actually also so much more efficient. So let me give you an example. I’m toying with the idea of moving out of Turks at KCOS.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (45:27.458) Yeah, yeah, but that was quick. That wasn’t that much time. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (45:34.484) or wiki old Wikipedia rabbit holes are going down.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. OK. You do rabbit holes. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (45:51.582) And somewhere else and so I started having conversation with GPT but like where else would have the same quality of beaches but not of the dance sides of things I don’t love in terms and it ended up suggesting four countries which narrowed down in two countries four islands then it identified like base of what I’d be the off-grid community and trying to build like actual land that was available based on an analysis of the master where was open then it found me the owners and he said you know what I actually think you should go and buy this hotel because it’s like decrepit falling apart in three star

And here’s my comparative valuation analysis of how much it’s worth based on multiple analysis. I’ve done a bet. I’ve created, I’ve created a financial model of what I think your P and L looks like based on their published rates on Expedia and booking for like several years times the average occupancy of the country times the labor costs for these types of hotels. This is the P and L this is what I think they’re worth. By the way, it’s a three star all inclusive resort. This is the multiples at which these start these resorts have been trading at.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (46:25.792) Holy mackerel, this is so cool.

Fabrice Grinda (46:51.262) for the last five years in the country. Therefore, on a comparable analysis, things were this much. So these are the owners. This is much it’s worth. If you want to buy, maybe offer 20 or 30 % more. But don’t start there. Start at market value and then be willing to pay 30 % 40 % more. This is a deep research project, obviously. And it took hours to get me the results. But it’s basically a McKinsey analysis, McKinsey level results.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (47:10.839) Yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (47:17.262) through several hours of interaction, it is mind-boggling. And I’ve used it for, if I need coding help, it gives me the answer. If I need research on medicine, supplements, I’m trying to heal my tennis cell bones, we had deep conversations on peptides and whether or not I should use peptides to heal my tendon and where the person comes from.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (47:25.4) Yeah, of course.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (47:36.195) wait, what did you come up with at the end of the title?

Fabrice Grinda (47:40.318) Um, so I’ve done PR beside a rich PRP and we, we shrink the tear from one centimeter point three centimeter. And now we’re doing BPC one five seven with TB 500 peptides because they’re not growth or money and where they injected, where does the right quantity, how do you get them? What, what, which, uh, yeah, all that stuff came through from interactions, Dr. GPT, you know, it’s like mind boggling. You can use it for everything. And by the way, what’s here’s something that’s interesting. Like two years ago.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (47:55.452) wow.

So cool.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:03.704) That’s so cool.

Fabrice Grinda (48:09.424) I used mid journey, used runaway, used so many other AI tools and now I just use GPT for literally everything. Okay, cursor recoding, and even cursor I could see in future, a GitHub and Copilot will just offer it for free and maybe even GPT will just add it. And so…

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:11.608) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:26.51) Yeah, or you’ll use Windsurf, is an open AI product or something like that, potentially.

Fabrice Grinda (48:31.294) Yeah, exactly. So I don’t know. I only use OpenAI these days.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:34.946) You don’t use any of the Google tools. You don’t use perplexity. You don’t use. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (48:39.838) I’ve done A-B testing. Once in a while I go to Grog and perplexity and entropic and deep seek, et cetera. But I’m so happy with my interactions with OpenAI and GBD. And by the way, now that’s.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:42.936) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (48:50.318) Yeah, I certainly don’t use, I certainly stopped using mid-Jersey like about a, I don’t know, maybe a year ago or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (48:54.91) Yeah, Valley is great. Yeah, who needs to venture in it? so the open AI is eating the world. think it’s an existential threat for Google, by the way. Like I have stopped using Google completely. Like I’m 100 % there.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (49:05.592) Bye.

Well, you probably, I mean, you probably still use Google Docs and Google Mail and, you know, the suite and you’ve got, you know, your company’s probably still use a lot of them still use GCP and you’re, you know, you’re a lot, you know, a lot of your people use Android and they’ve got a lot of things going.

Fabrice Grinda (49:20.126) Yeah, actually we were always on, we were always on Microsoft Exchange for a variety of reasons versus Gmail.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (49:29.154) Well, why? Why are you on stage? Just to control your own emails, like for security or.

Fabrice Grinda (49:35.26) Yeah, no, it’s not. No, no, not at all. Google has 50 gig mailboxes. I’ve been I have emails since 90 whatever to I have like several terabytes of emails and it does. Now they don’t they don’t. And Google doesn’t like folders and subfolders. And the thing is, if you have several million emails and you do search, you get way too many results. So actually, I have a hierarchy of things organized and structured and that and so

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (49:47.104) You could pay a small fee to get.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (50:02.698) interesting. I’m looking at my Gmail right now and I have two terabytes in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (50:10.384) Okay. So maybe they fixed that, but back in the day, maybe a decade ago, it was limited to 50 gigabytes. and, and so for a long time there was a size limitation, but then just everything for me is structured in, in like folders, subfolders by company. like, Alex, I have like product. Yeah. I flattened the hierarchies in my brain thinks in these hierarchies and folders and subfolders, et cetera. And so it’s really not, it doesn’t move. So it’s more a reflection of the way I like to work.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (50:15.768) Okay.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (50:26.092) Okay, so like moving would be just be a hard to move or something.

Fabrice Grinda (50:38.63) My inbox is my to-do list, right? So I try to be in inbox zero. I really happen to like the UX UI and the way work with Exchange. So it’s a personal preference, same way I prefer iOS to Android. yeah, whatever.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (50:52.374) Yeah. Now at some point, I forgot where this was, you know, 10 plus years ago, you were leading a more nomadic lifestyle, where you’re having fewer possessions and things like that. What did you learn from that journey?

Fabrice Grinda (51:09.79) So let’s start by why I did it. I did it because as we get older, I find that our friendships fray. They don’t have the same quality as they have. When you’re in college, you’re seeing your best friends every day. You’re talking about future of life and philosophy. You go really deep. As you get older, because you get busy with work, with husbands, with wives, with kids, whatever, you start seeing each other every six weeks, eight weeks, and it becomes a biographical update.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (51:20.973) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (51:33.986) Yeah. People live, if they live in different cities, you know, much less. Yeah. Yeah. I was just trading emails with one of my best friends from college. realized I hadn’t seen them in like six years.

Fabrice Grinda (51:38.758) Exactly once a year. Yeah. Yeah, so it’s even more

Fabrice Grinda (51:46.586) Exactly. So I felt that the quality of these relationships was fraying. And I’m like, you know what? I just sold my company. And the other thing is you have a default, right? If you have an apartment, you live there. If you have a job, you go there. If you live in a city, you stay there. And do you ask yourself at first principles, absent any constraints, where would I want to be? What would I want to be doing? Who would I want to be seeing? And so I’m like, you know what?

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (52:10.509) Yep.

Fabrice Grinda (52:13.37) I happen to be in a very privileged position at this point in time where I actually can be anywhere, see anyone, do anything. Let’s iterate, let’s throw spaghetti in the world and figure out how I would want to actually structure my ideal life. And so I started by like couchsurfing and friends couchsurfing to reconnect with them, which actually was a dismal failure because of course embedding yourself in their lives when they have jobs, kids, et cetera. like, and I’m also infinite energy.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (52:39.745) Yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (52:42.43) So my vision of like we’re gonna play tennis from like whatever 8 to 10 p.m We’re gonna come home and we’re gonna you know, think through like the whatever geopolitics macro I need to get a sleep. I’m tired. I think we were like different like different life stages as well Even though we’re I was we’re the same age. I was like single and so it’s very different that didn’t work But I kept iterating and iterating and then I realized you know what?

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (52:49.966) Right, they’re like, I gotta bring the kid to school tomorrow. Yeah.

Fabrice Grinda (53:11.174) I like, I find that each city has a time where it’s best enjoyed. So I love New York like September, October. The weather’s pleasant, have all the new tech weeks, the events, et cetera. I love New York in April, May, June. Okay, so why don’t I live there in like Airbnb’s in that period? in the summer it’s too hot, it’s humid, it’s oppressive, and no one’s there. They’re in the Hamptons, and I don’t like the Hamptons. Okay, let’s go the south of France for a month. let’s go to Canada in August to go.

climbing, rock and hiking and camping, et cetera. And then November, December, let’s go to Turks where I’m kite surfing. And in January, February, let’s go to British Columbia where I’m back country skiing and Mars, let’s go back to Turkey. So I started creating through iteration where like one week, one week, two weeks, two weeks, two months, two months, I started creating this life where I realized, you know what? I love New York because it’s the center of the world and it’s a haven for creative.

social artistic professional endeavors. It’s where I host my dialogue dinners every like two to three weeks. It’s where I feel the most fulfilled, but everything every social interaction is professional and after two months there I am burned out. And also if you’re doing you’re not thinking. And so then taking a step back and going to Turks and Caicos, you’re going to British Columbia where I’m working during the day, of course my life is zoom calls, but then there’s none of the rest of the distractions of New York and I’m like

meditating, reading, writing, doing my podcasts, writing on my blog, reading my books, and just being very healthy and being reflective is my personal work-life balance. And so I ended up iterating, creating this life that is perfect for me. I’m not saying it’s universal, if I was just in Trix, I’d go crazy. If I was just in Reykjavik, I’d go crazy. If I was just in New York, I’d burn out. And so that combination of mountain, beach, city, in the right time ended up being perfect for me.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (54:51.02) Yeah, yeah, be optimized something.

Fabrice Grinda (55:03.824) And I came through it just because I had this acid-like lifestyle where I could actually try it. And it took me many iterations. I started in the Dominican Republic, not in church. That was a big mistake. But again, you learn from trying. You don’t try exactly.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (55:15.47) Yeah, you’re like, Now, you and I, one the things we share is like a love for dinner parties and stuff like that. What have you found? Like, what’s the formula that you figured out that works well?

Fabrice Grinda (55:28.158) Well, there you can take all the credit because I basically copied the dialogue dinners. And so I host Jeffersonian dinners where it’s one conversation only a lot of the time. I have a round table. I’ve always had round tables, even prior to dialogue, but I have a round table where we’re eight.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (55:44.238) And so you’re capping at a certain number of people.

Fabrice Grinda (55:47.678) Correct, so we’re eight to 10. Sometimes we could be 11, but very, very smart, ambitious people, or Tennessee the Alpha don’t like to be listening for as long, for very long. And so I’ve actually had 20, 30 people, Jeffersonian dinners, but they’re hard to moderate on a long table, and it’s hard to keep one conversation centered. And so I’m like, you know what, just for simplicity, we’re gonna be six to 12. But unless on average we’re eight to 10. I’m the moderator.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (55:49.582) 8 to 10.

Fabrice Grinda (56:15.87) This way I don’t have a lost slot for moderator. Pre-assigned topics, either personal or open-ended or topical, like reinventing democracy of the 21st century, often helped by the dialog organization effect, in terms of finding the people that are coming to them, et cetera. So it’s a combination of my friends and dialogers, and there’s massive overlap between those two. And yeah, you need to show up on time. Your phone needs to be off.

You can, yeah, and after two hours, I tell everyone that the dinner is completed and that they’re free to go and some people stay and that model works very well. The differences I’ve done is like, I used to be very strict, like your phone rings once you’re out, you’re never coming back. You showed up one minute late, you’re not allowed in. Now I’m like, you know what? Show up seven to 730, we start at 730, then you’re not allowed in. And it’s 730 to 930 and 930, I end the proceedings and you can stay or not if you want.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (56:57.998) You

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (57:05.966) Okay.

Fabrice Grinda (57:10.718) And if your phone happened once in a while, I’m like, yeah, people have kids, etc. They can have emergencies. It’s okay. I’m no longer as dictatorial as I used to be. But I do care about like,

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (57:17.499) You

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (57:22.126) And yeah, if you do, you obviously that, that makes a lot of sense for exploring like intellectual topics or business things. Have you done for like social, like a similar thing for social, we have couples or other stuff as well.

Fabrice Grinda (57:27.826) Yes.

Fabrice Grinda (57:35.23) Oh yeah, like what’s the, how to be, you know, what’s the best way to deal with aging parents? How to be a parent. I’m doing one with another, Stein, another dialoger on non-dualism in July. Non-dualism, yes, the fact that we are all God. And so, yes, I do them on a wide, wide variety of topics.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (57:39.502) how to be a better parent or something, yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (57:51.638) non dualism. Okay.

Okay.

Fabrice Grinda (58:03.39) know, religion in 21st century, life in a post-singularity world, which is completely, I mean, no one knows, right? Like so, it’s like you’re limited by sci-fi in your imagination or, yeah, books you’ve read, like whatever, like very wide range and I mix the personal and the, but again, it’s a reflection of partly like me. The reason I do them is I’m very intellectually curious and our jobs or, you know, we live in a world that rewards specialization.

So it’s a way to express my intellectual curiosity in polymath.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (58:35.244) Now, a couple questions we ask all of our guests. What is a conspiracy theory you believe?

Fabrice Grinda (58:41.752) answer indirectly because it’s not a conspiracy theory but it’s a belief I have that I’ve experienced that I cannot prove but because conspiracy theories, you for the most part it’s like I can like if you look at the moon you can see that we have like flag and like stuff we left there so and it was probably the most watched event in history like kind of hard to fake you know or the earth is flat you can kind of prove but it’s not in fact people knew it was around like

Thousands of years ago, you know, you see the boat going over the horizon and past disappearing. So not many of these But through the use of psychedelics I have felt Very deeply primarily that we are like that this reality is kind of a simulation dream matrix

we’re basically an otherwise bored immortal omnipotent omniscient deity, as created to have new experiences and we’re all here to entertain each other. And so we’re living this dream of life and I can’t prove it. And I’ve never even, but was aware that there were a few philosophies out there that, that, that, that suggested that the, this belief is, which is why it’s interesting because like, you know, in a Christian type tradition,

the God human relationship is like of like whatever kings or whatever owner and slave, not one where we are God. And I felt that we are all basically an expression of God and that this, which is why you can manifest, can, some rules, like in the matrix, in this simulation, some rules could be bent, others can be broken. And I felt a sense of unity and oneness on.

acid on ayahuasca on mushrooms that is mind-boggling and like literally I would think of something it were like what happened it where I would meet that person I’d like a bird in it or whatever like now can I prove that this is true no but I I’ve like lived it and felt it like once I accidentally took ten drops of acid like I felt like I lived I witnessed the creation of the universe and earth and looked through the creation of everything I had total ego that if I breathe the individual disappeared

Fabrice Grinda (01:01:00.966) and I became a mother, a surfer. It was beautiful and mind-boggling. And so it’s not a conspiracy, but it’s pretty crazy. It’s pretty crazy. I can’t prove it to be right. It could be an epiphenomenon of my brain, but I have lived it. I have had a divine experience. It felt like I communed with the divine. And that’s what I think is missing from modern-day religious occurrences.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:01:09.292) Yeah, no, no, I like it. Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:01:26.83) Okay, this is cool. Last question we ask all of our guests, what conventional wisdom or advice do you think is generally bad advice?

Fabrice Grinda (01:01:36.094) So I’ve thought about this one. In fact, it was on the dialogue dinner I had Thursday last week. was one of the questions in the dialogue dinner.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:01:40.439) Okay.

I bet for the people on this or those is dialogue is something you and I do together to kind of like explore intellectual curiosity with some very other interesting people.

Fabrice Grinda (01:01:59.089) So I think there’s some piece of advice that can be correct for some that can be incorrect for others. So one of the common pieces of advice and wisdom is like follow your passion and see where it leads and everything will be right for the world. And it is true if you happen to have a passion that you love and it’s monetizable.

and you can make a good living out of it, it’s amazing. Like if you feel that you’re playing like I am, and probably you are, like every day I feel like work is play and it’s amazing. But there are two cases where I think this doesn’t work very well. One is if you have a passion and a hobby and you turn it into your job, you may actually lose the joie de vivre. It may no longer be something that you love doing, right? Like think of Agassiz and Tempest as father like.

basically beat the joy out of tennis for a minute. He started hating.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:02:53.56) By the way, his book, Open, is like, think one of the best autobiographies I’ve ever written.

Fabrice Grinda (01:02:58.832) Exactly. And he was miserable. And so turning your passion into a job is not always a great idea because you made it maybe meant it’s better as a hobby. And if you turn it into a job and it becomes work, you may hate it. And so you need to really be thoughtful about that. And then second thing is the job you should have is like something where you’re good at it. The world values it as such. It’s monetizable and you’re happy to be doing it. You’re happy to be doing it on a repeated basis.

And it could very well be that if you’re whatever hobby is like Art history, you know, there’s only one Met curator, you know So you may not be in a position to monetize it very effectively So I would be thoughtful about that So but are there cases where the common wisdom advice works? Absolutely, and it’s way better if you love what you do, but There are cases where it really doesn’t work. And so I’d be I’d be very thoughtful

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:03:36.856) Yeah.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:03:54.37) Yeah, and going back to that bus driver or the passport stamper, like you can find joy in many things, you know.

Fabrice Grinda (01:04:03.176) Absolutely.

Auren Hoffman (@auren) (01:04:04.174) Alright, this has been amazing. Thank you Fabrice Grinda for joining us on World of DaaS. I follow you at Fabrice Grinda on X. I definitely encourage our listeners to engage you there. This has been a ton of fun.

Fabrice Grinda (01:04:15.592) Thank you.

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